Transcript:
The Inside Story: Syria after Assad
Episode 175 – December 19, 2024
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Unidentified Narrator:
This week on The Inside Story:
The fall of Damascus met with joy and rage.
Plus, a look at the regional challenges facing the incoming Trump administration
Now… on The Inside Story: Syria after Assad.
The Inside Story:
CARLA BABB, VOA Pentagon Correspondent:
Hello and welcome to the Inside Story I’m Carla Babb.
The Assad regime has fallen after 5 decades in power.
The people of Syria are reacting to the rapidly changing situation with a mixture of anger, jubilation and confusion. Our Heather Murdock has seen it all unfold in the Syrian capital, Damascus.
HEATHER MURDOCK, VOA Correspondent:
Rage in Damascus is deep and widespread.
At this funeral for a prominent victim of prison torture, people call for the execution of President Bashar al-Assad, less than a week after he fled the country.
Everyone we speak to here says they lost someone to the brutal prison system that collapsed with the regime.
Mother of Prisoner:
My God, where is [my son]? I want to see him, hold him and smell him. I don’t know where he is. They took him from me. I hope God takes them.
HEATHER MURDOCK:
The young man being buried, Mazen al-Hamada, died in prison after speaking publicly about being tortured.
At this hospital families are searching for the bodies of people they believe to have died recently.
Pictures of the bodies hang on the walls outside. Many, we are told, have wounds that appear to be from torture.
Inside the hospital, dozens of bodies await identification.
But most families who have come here don’t find their relatives.
Majda Abu al-Omani, Mother of Missing Men:
My sons were arrested in 2014; they gave us death certificates, but we don’t know what happened to them. The scene in here is indescribable. It makes your hair grey.
HEATHER MURDOCK:
At the notorious Sednaya prison, other families search for clues that may help them find their missing loved ones. Many believe there are missing prisoners who are still alive in long-hidden secret facilities.
Khamis al-Ibrahim, Searching for Missing Brother:
There are living souls under this ground. Not just one or two. It’s been four or five days we’ve been here at Sednaya and so far, nothing.
People tell us that their relatives were arrested for unknown reasons, or for saying something negative about the government, or even for living in an area populated by activists or rebels.
And Heather joins us now from Damascus Heather. What’s the latest you’re seeing?
HEATHER MURDOCK:
Well, in the past week and a couple of days since the government fell, there has been a shift in the mood. At first, there was elation. I mean, there were celebrations on the street. There were fireworks and gunfire every day and every night, and then, I mean, there was so much emotion, then there was anger and despair, and there’s still a lot of both things, a lot of happiness and a lot of despair, mostly over so many there’s so many people who have been lost to Syria’s notorious prison system.
But there’s also beginning to be a sense of normalcy here as well. People are going back to work. People are thinking, you know, what’s next? This rebel group is no longer a rebel group. They’re forming some kind of government, and there’s a lot of hope that what they do form will be inclusive and successful economically, and, you know, certainly a lot less horrible than the fallen regime. But not a lot of not a lot is known right now about how it will turn out. So I’d say hopeful, but definitely skeptical too.
CARLA BABB:
You said, not a lot is known. How much do people know about HTS?
HEATHER MURDOCK:
They have a long history, and a lot of their history, it doesn’t really tell us what we need to know about what they will do now. So for example, they used to be associated with al Qaeda and Al Nusra and even the Islamic State, but they fought bitterly with the Islamic State, and they have publicly and loudly cut ties with al Qaeda.
They are an Islamist group. There’s no doubt about that. They’re a conservative Islamist group. You can see by the way they dress that this is a fact, and by their own you know, acknowledgement. However, they also say they’re going to respect Syria’s ethnic and religious minorities, which are many, Syria is a very diverse country. So, you can’t imagine that this country could be successful with one religious group taking over it.
CARLA BABB:
You mentioned people are going back to work now. How is that? How are people figuring these things out now that there is technically not a government head anymore.
HEATHER MURDOCK:
There is a lot of questions. And I mean, in some places, it actually is hindering businesses, for example, the volatility of the currency. We were in Aleppo the other day, and there, the currency is so volatile. Some shops aren’t opening. Money changers simply will not open because they don’t know what to do. Because what the known currency exchange rate, it changes hour to hour, sometimes minute to minute. So there’s a lot of up and down with not just the currency, but things like utilities and facilities they’re operating, and the HTS government is trying to utilize as much of the existing infrastructure as they can to keep things running as they were.
But to be honest, things weren’t running that well before. So a lot of some of the challenges we’re facing now, like internet not working, no one really sure who’s going to be in charge of things like the internet and the telecoms companies. Those things were a challenge before, and now they’re just a bit more of a challenge now, on the other hand, people think, you know now that this country is more open, open borders and a willingness to try to engage with international community, are all of these things going to get so much better in the next few weeks and months? That’s a big question too.
CARLA BABB:
It’s nice to know that they’re hopeful about that we’ll see how the internal politics and the internal quality of life changes in the coming days. But what about the security? Since you mentioned the open border, how is HTS and the others trying to keep things safe and secure? And what are you seeing is there still a lot of fighting going on?
HEATHER MURDOCK:
In terms of safety and security on this street, you do see HDS soldiers in a lot of places, securing buildings, and particularly securing high profile places like ministries and but you also see things like borders where people can just cross through freely, and they’re starting To tighten it up. For example, the Lebanon border has been open since they took over, and they recently said that border is going to be more or less closed to most people until they establish some kind of customs that and other land borders. So there is, you know, some fear that there hasn’t been much security here for the past week, and now it’s starting to tighten up, and also a feeling like we’re kind of lucky that not more there’s not been more violence in the past week and such.
In terms of fighting, there’s still airstrikes, still attacks from Israel coming. I want to say, every day I think, I think pretty much every day there’s been airstrikes from Israel. Most do not end with casualties. Most of them are on weapons depots only. In terms of actual fighting, there’s not a lot there’s a lot of tension in the northeast of Syria, and we’ve heard there’s been arrests, and there’s there’s increased fighting between the Kurdish forces and the Turkish forces that have been at odds for years there, but in Damascus and in the cities that were formerly controlled by the government of Bashar Al Assad or HTS and their allies, those cities and towns are mostly quiet at this moment.
CARLA BABB:
Well Heather, the US is definitely concerned about that area you were talking about in North East Syria. Excellent reporting. Thank you so much for joining us.
HEATHER MURDOCK:
Thank you, Carla.
CARLA BABB:
Heather, thanks for joining us. Excellent reporting.
US President Joe Biden called the ouster of Assad a “fundamental act of justice” after decades of repression, but he warned it was also a moment of uncertainty. Officials worry remnants of the Islamic State terror group could try to resurge in Syria.
And while Syrian celebrations abound, concern about Islamic State is a big reason defense officials say U.S. troops in Syria should stay and continue helping their counter-terror partners based in the east.
Syrians in Damascus reacting to a world without the Assad regime in power, a first since 1971.
US Secretary of State Antony Blinken:
It’s impossible not to be moved by the scenes of jubilation, the scenes of relief coming out of Syria. The end of this regime is a defeat for all who enabled its barbarity and its corruption, none more than Iran, Hezbollah and Russia. So this moment presents a historic opportunity, but it also carries considerable risks.
CARLA BABB:
Risks that U.S. forces aimed to mitigate, striking Islamic State targets in central Syria with fighter jets, B-52 bombers and A-10 combat aircraft. A move meant to ensure the terror group won’t try to take advantage of the situation.
Michael Rubin, American Enterprise Institute:
The real danger moving forward over the next 48 hours is that if the Islamic State escapes its prison camp at Al Hol, then you could have thousands of militants, thousands of extremists not only spreading across Syria and the Middle East, but also Turkey and Europe as well.
CARLA BABB:
The U.S. military has about 900 troops in Syria to help Syrian Democratic Forces prevent Islamic State from resurging, with officials stating three primary interests now that the Assad regime has fallen.
Robert Wood, US Alternate Representative to the UN:
Our soldiers and personnel and all are protected. We want to make sure that our allies are safe and secure. We want to make sure that there isn’t a humanitarian catastrophe.
CARLA BABB:
The ousted former president has fled to Moscow. Analysts say the fall of Syria has weakened Russia, along with Iran.
Michael Rubin, American Enterprise Institute:
They’ve lost Hezbollah, or at least the ability to supply them. They’ve lost Syria. The question now is whether they can keep their grip on the Houthis, or whether other states in the region, Saudi Arabia, for example, are going to smell blood in the water.
CARLA BABB:
The Pentagon says communication with allies is key. U.S. Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin has spoken with his Turkish counterpart about the ongoing Syrian developments. CENTCOM commander General Erik Kurilla is in the region. He has met with Jordanian allies to discuss Syria and, officials say, he plans to speak with other regional allies in the coming days.
Following the overthrow of the Assad regime in Syria, Israel seized control of a demilitarized buffer zone in the Golan Heights. Israel has also launched hundreds of attacks on weapons factories and military infrastructure near Damascus in what it describes as precautionary strikes. Linda Gradstein has this report from Jerusalem.
LINDA GRADSTEIN, VOA Correspondent:
Israeli Foreign Minister Gideon Saar said Israel is concerned that some of Syria’s weapons could fall into the hands of those who want to harm the Jewish state.
Gideon Saar, Israeli Foreign Minister:
That’s why we attacked strategic weapons systems like, for example, remaining chemical weapons or long-range missiles and rockets in order that they will not fall into the hands of extremists.
LINDA GRADSTEIN:
He spoke after Israeli troops took over a demilitarized buffer zone between Israel and Syria.
Israel’s Prime Minister said Israel will not allow any hostile force to establish itself on Israel’s border.
But overall, Israeli analysts say Israel sees the events in Syria as an internal issue for the Syrian people, and it hopes that rebel leader Abu Mohammed al-Golani can establish ties with Israel.
Dina Lisnyansky, Tel Aviv University:
I do know for a fact that Israel has those connections already with the Kurds in Syria. They approached the Israeli government and said they would like to cooperate. So, the Kurds and also the Druze in the Syrian Golan Heights are also sending all kinds of messages to Israel that are very peaceful.
LINDA GRADSTEIN:
For decades, the boundary between Israel and Syria had been Israel’s quietest border following an agreement after the 1973 Yom Kippur war. But some analysts say that the new situation could eventually lead to a peace treaty between Israel and Syria.
Hazem Alghabra, Analyst:
I’m trying to better understand if the people and Syria, [are] maybe, potentially ready to receive aid from Israel, maybe trade with Israel down the line. I think it’s way too early for that. But I believe now, and this is this is where I disagree with half the people and agree with the other half, Israel is emerging as a regional superpower. Right now, at least militarily.
LINDA GRADSTEIN:
Israel is watching to see how Iran will react to the events in Syria. Israeli analysts believe Iran has been weakened by both Israel’s rout of Hezbollah in south Lebanon and by the events in Syria.
Some in Israel fear that Iran could try to reestablish deterrence by moving ahead with its nuclear program, which could spark an Israeli attack on Iran.
Linda Gradstein, VOA News, Jerusalem.
CARLA BABB:
In just a few weeks, president-elect Donald Trump will take the oath of office on the steps of the United States Capitol. Trump says he wants to avoid involvement in Syria. But as White House Bureau Chief Patsy Widakuswara reports, what comes next in the war-weary country will be important for the U.S. and its allies.
Donald Trump, US President-Elect:
It certainly seems like the world is going a little crazy right now and we’ll be talking about that.
PATSY WIDAKUSWARA, VOA White House Bureau Chief:
Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, the rebels who toppled Assad, is a U.S.-designated foreign terrorist group.
Still, Trump wants the U.S. to stay out of the Syrian conflict. “This is not our fight,” he said on social media.
Tulsi Gabbard, Trump’s pick for intelligence chief, agreed.
Tulsi Gabbard, Intelligence Chief Nominee:
He is fully committed, as he has said over and over, to bring about an end to wars, demonstrating peace through strength, and putting the national security interests and the safety, security and freedom of the American people first and foremost.
PATSY WIDAKUSWARA:
But with Assad gone, Trump may need to balance his noninterventionist stance with U.S. goals of protecting allies, such as Israel and Jordan, and avoiding the resurgence of terrorist groups such as Islamic State.
Christopher O’Leary, Counterterrorism Expert:
Reducing the access to chemical weapons, reducing the capabilities of known terrorist organizations in ungoverned space or in space where there’s failed states, where nobody else can do it, I think is a very smart move. And I do think that is likely what President Trump will continue to do.
PATSY WIDAKUSWARA:
During his first term, Trump ordered strikes on the Assad regime in response to chemical weapons attacks but focused more on defeating Islamic State.
He ordered U.S. troops out of Syria in 2019, leaving a few hundred American soldiers to protect oil fields.
He was criticized for abandoning allies. Following the withdrawal, Turkey launched offensives against Kurdish forces who had fought alongside American soldiers to destroy Islamic State in Syria.
This time, Trump said quote, “Let it play out. Do not get involved.”
But with so many U.S. interests in the region, that may be easier said than done.
Patsy Widakuswara, VOA News, Washington.
CARLA BABB:
An example of the complicated politics of the region now…
With the Syrian government’s collapse, local actors are trying to take advantage of that power vacuum.
A Turkish-backed Syrian militia in the country’s northeast began moving against a part of the U-S supported Syrian Democratic forces known as the People’s Protection Units, or Y-P-G.
But Ankara says the Kurdish Y-P-G is affiliated with militants fighting Turkey and has promised to fight the group. Dorian Jones has more from Istanbul.
DORIAN JONES, VOA Correspondent:
The Turkish-supported Syrian National Army, backed by Turkish airstrikes, is continuing its assault against the YPG, which Ankara claims is linked to the PKK, a group that has been fighting Turkey for decades.
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan Monday defended the assault, saying Turkey was only protecting its frontier and has no interest in Syrian territory.
Ankara sees opportunity in the ouster of the Assad regime and withdrawal of its Iranian and Russian backers.
Bilgehan Alagoz, Marmara University:
There is no Russia; there is no Iran; Turkey was facing the Russian forces, the Iranian forces, and Assad’s regime forces while it was combating PKK and YPG. If you name it as an opportunity, yes, we can name it as an opportunity for its fight against PKK, YPG.
DORIAN JONES:
But the YPG is supported by a small U.S. military force that was deployed as part of the war against the Islamic State group.
With the Turkish-backed Syrian National Army now approaching the Euphrates River, analysts say further advances could put Ankara on a collision course with both Washington and Syria’s new rulers, Hayat Tahir Al Sham or HTS.
Aydin Selcen, Foreign Policy Analyst:
The Euphrates is now like a line perhaps for the U.S. military. If that goes on as such, it can bring Turkey indirectly head-to-head with the U.S., with even perhaps HTS, and it can put Turkeym Ankara in a delicate diplomatic position again.
DORIAN JONES:
The Israeli military advance into Syria, analysts say, is fueling Ankara’s concerns over the threat posed by the YPG and its political wing, the PYD, given the Israeli foreign minister Gideon Saar’s speech last month declaring the Kurds a natural ally of Israel amid a growing Turkish-Israeli rivalry.
Hasan Unal, Baskent University:
Israel is now carving out a corridor between the PKK, PYD-controlled territories, and its own territories. That suggests that this is what they are trying to do, a Kurdish puppet state, east of the Euphrates. And this is something which is likely to create lots of problems with Turkey.
DORIAN JONES:
Israel’s presence in Syria means Ankara is likely to step up its pressure on the YPG and will be looking to the incoming Trump administration to end the U.S. military presence in Syria.
Dorian Jones, VOA News, Istanbul.
CARLA BABB:
Following the collapse of Damascus, many Syrians flocked to Sednaya Prison. Infamously known as “the human slaughterhouse” where tens of thousands of people were shoved together, tortured, and starved. They sought answers about their missing loved ones and saw firsthand the horrors they faced inside. Joan Cabasés Vega brings us this report from Sednaya. Veronica Villafañe narrates.
VERONICA VILLAFAÑE, VOA Correspondent:
The Sednaya prison was a feared detention center run by the Syrian government. Known for its brutal torture and countless executions, it earned the chilling nickname “the human slaughterhouse.”
Rebel forces freed the prisoners in the wake of the collapse of Bashar al-Assad’s regime. Thousands of people have now gathered here, hoping to find their loved ones, like this man …
Ahmed Burkani, Syrian citizen:
They took him to Sednaya when he was just a 14-year-old boy. To this day, we have no idea if he’s still in Sednaya, if he’s alive, if he was killed, or if he’s being held in some underground cell.
VERONICA VILLAFAÑE:
Over the 13 years of civil war, as many as 100,000 people were detained by the Syrian government. Many are still missing, and desperate citizens are hoping they might find them at Sednaya.
Raja Abdelrahouf, Syrian citizen:
I’m looking for my brother. Someone told me 10 days ago that he was still alive. I need my brother.
VERONICA VILLAFAÑE:
Rebel forces’ storming of the prison not only freed many prisoners but also revealed the prison’s records.
Desperate families now sift through documents scattered on the ground, hoping to find any information about their missing, or executed, relatives.
Some of these documents list the names of those who died or were executed while imprisoned. Crowds gather, listening intently as these grim “blacklists” are read aloud.
It’s believed thousands of prisoners were held in Sednaya, with each 5-by-5-meter cell, crammed with over 100 people.
However, when the Islamist group Hayat Tahrir al-Sham arrived, it found only 300 prisoners inside. This has fueled speculation of mass executions, prisoner transfers, or the existence of underground cells.
For most of those who have traveled here, the search has ended with no answers. Now, they say, all that remains is the hope for justice.
For Joan Cabasés Vega, in Sednaya, Syria, Veronica Villafañe, VOA News.
CARLA BABB:
Before we leave you this week, an update on Austin Tice: The freelance American journalist and U.S. Marine Corps veteran kidnapped while reporting in Syria in 2012.
Joining us now with the latest is Liam Scott, who’s been covering the story for our Press Freedom Unit.
Before we leave you this week, an update on Austin Tice, the freelance American journalist, and US Marine Corps veteran kidnapped while reporting in Syria in 2012 Joining us now with the latest is Liam Scott, who’s been covering the story for our press freedom guest, Liam, why does the family still think he’s alive at this point. I mean, it’s been since 2012?
LIAM SCOTT, VOA Press Freedom Reporter:
So shortly before the Assad government fell, the Tice family revealed that they had received information vetted by the US government, confidential information that confirmed Austin was not only alive but also believed to be held in the Damascus area. And after the Assad government fell, 1000s of prisoners have been released around the country from prisons run by the now former Assad government, and that has really fostered hope among the Tice family that Austin will soon be among them.
CARLA BABB:
So what is the United States doing at this point, now that Bashar Al Assad is gone. What are they doing to try to engage with the new government and try to find Austin?
LIAM SCOTT:
Yeah, so the US government has said that they are committed to locating Austin, but at the same time they, you know, the State Department confirmed earlier this week that they don’t have any US personnel on the ground looking for him. So it’s really gone to journalists, also to NGOs that are on the ground to look for him. The State Department has also confirmed that they’ve engaged with HTS on the case of Austin Tice and HTS has said that they are looking for Austin as well.
CARLA BABB:
You know, we talked about all the bombing, you know, that Israel has done, that the United States has done to kind of knock out some of the Syrian military power, to knock out some of the terrorist power out of an Islamic state. You know, when they research and you just wonder, what if Austin is there? What is happening? I mean, how concerned is the family with everything going on, with all the violence and all the bombing going on right now?
LIAM SCOTT:
So Deborah, Tice, Austin’s mother, a few days ago, actually wrote a letter to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, asking, essentially for the Israeli military to pause their strikes on the part of Syria, where Austin is believed to be held in the mountains outside of Damascus, because there is a concern that you know he’s there, and it’s also makes it a lot harder for rescuers to to go there and hopefully find not only him, but other prisoners while these strikes are ongoing. And then, actually, on on Tuesday, Netanyahu replied to Deborah Tice in a letter, in a letter saying that the IDF wasn’t bombing those parts where Austin was believed to be held.
CARLA BABB:
So, tension, also, a moment of hope for the family. I’m sure you will keep us updated. Liam Scott, thank you so much for updating us on Austin. Thank you, Carla. Well thanks for joining us for this edition of the entire
CARLA BABB:
Thanks for joining us for this edition of The Inside Story.
I’m Carla Babb in Washington.
For all the latest news, login to VOANews.com, and join us again next week for The Inside Story.
Thanks for watching.
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