This week’s NATO summit in Washington marks 75 years of alliance among countries all over the world. Among the founding members is Norway.
Norwegian Minister of Foreign Affairs Espen Barth Eide spoke with VOA regarding the possibility of Ukraine joining NATO, expressing full support for the country in its attempt to join the alliance. Eide also touched on Norway’s struggles bordering Russia.
The following transcript has been edited for clarity and brevity.
VOA: Russia hit Ukrainian civilian targets, including a children’s hospital, right before the NATO summit started. What kind of signal do you think [Russian President Vladimir] Putin tried to send by doing that this way? And what did he receive in the result? Did he influence the decisions of the NATO summit, and how?
Espen Barth Eide, Norwegian minister of foreign affairs: Well, if it influences the decisions, that will just help us to be even bolder and stronger in our messaging that Putin shall not prevail. We cannot accept that kind of behavior in Europe. It breaks international law; it breaks the U.N. Charter. It’s a gross violation of international humanitarian law. But his entire behavior is a deep breach with also the European security architecture that was developed many years ago and which all countries signed up to, which is that we should respect the invariability of borders. And all these rules are being broken, and we cannot let him prevail, so we support Ukraine. We stand in solidarity with the proud and very dedicated people of Ukraine, but we also do this because we cannot allow this kind of behavior in Europe.
VOA: The Ukrainian delegation is calling for and has discussions about removing all red lines on striking with weapons provided by Western countries on Russian territory. What is Norway’s position on this?
Eide: Our principal position is that as long as the military operations of Ukraine are in line with international law, with the U.N. Charter, they should be able to use weapons to the best effect for defending Ukraine. The international law is very clear: If you are attacked, you can fight back at the attacker, also on the territory of the attacker. So, for instance, if an attack on Kharkiv is happening from Russian soil, it is perfectly within international law to fight back at the base of that attack.
VOA: Ukraine is trying to become a member of NATO. Norway joined NATO as one of the founding members and not everyone was happy about that, and you had your own struggle. Can you tell us if there are any lessons from Norway that Ukraine can apply in this situation, given it’s also about Russia?
Eide: We were among the 12 countries that started NATO here in Washington 75 years ago and since then our border with Russia has been very stable because we were a NATO member. We have been very clear toward Russia that we are not threatening Russia from Norwegian soil, but we have the biggest military power in the world as our ally, and if they [the Russians] threaten us, we will respond collectively. That has been extremely important.
VOA: Aren’t you threatened by Russia now, because of its possible attacks on infrastructure grid, oil, gas, undersea infrastructures and fiber optics?
Eide: Since relations between Europe and Russia broke down, Norway is the number one energy provider to Europe. We are the biggest exporter of oil, gas and also of electricity because we have deep interconnections of electricity. All this goes through the North Sea and down to the continent. So, of course, we are very eager to make sure that our undersea infrastructure is safe. And we’re working with NATO allies, particularly Germany, on patrolling and looking after, both over subsea and on sea, what is happening around our infrastructure. In the Nordic-Baltic cooperation where the five Nordic and three Baltic states are cooperating particularly closely, all of them now being NATO members after also Sweden joined, this is the topic that we are putting frequently on the NATO agenda: the hybrid threats stemming from Russia, potential threats, and real threats to critical infrastructure, internet cables, telephony, electricity and so on.
VOA: Can a cyberattack be a reason to invoke Article 5 [of the NATO treaty, which says an armed attack against one NATO ally is considered an attack against all the allies]?
Eide: In principle there is nothing in Article 5 precluding, saying that it cannot be so, because this is the allies who define what is an armed attack on one or more of its members. And I would say that a cyberattack that has physical consequences that, for instance, lead to death and destruction – which is possible, because, for instance, if you turn off the energy to the hospital in the north Norwegian winter, of course that could lead to death and destruction – that could be seen as an attack that will invoke Article 5. This is frequently being discussed, and where the threshold is not necessarily defined, but it’s up to the allies to define what is a breach that will invoke Article 5.
VOA: Norway took the lead in helping Ukraine restore its energy infrastructure. How much can you help with that because it is such a dire situation right now?
Eide: It is a very dramatic situation. I was in Ukraine last time a few months ago, and I visited both Kyiv and its surroundings, but also Odesa and surroundings, and obviously some of the power plants that had been bombed. I also visited some of the replacements that are being established, and I think Ukraine, on the energy front, needs two things. First, it needs repairs, so existing infrastructure can be put on the line again. And we contribute to that. Norway is a very electrified country, so we have a lot of competence on exactly that, that we can share with Ukraine. But also, it needs – and here I spoke to the leadership at the Ministry of Energy in Kyiv – it also needs to have more distributed energy production, so that the impact of one hit becomes less important. Because today you have a very Soviet style energy of a few very big energy production plants, which means if there is a hit, a lot of the energy falls out. If you have a more distributed system, where you spread it around, then the effect of a single hit will be slower.
VOA: The Russian war against Ukraine became a stress test for Europe, and they realized that they don’t have enough ammunition, enough artillery shell production. Norway plays a certain role here. How much can it help to remedy the situation?
Eide: If you look at Western European or European ammunition and weapons production, Norway is actually quite big. We have Kongsberg and Nammo and a few hundred companies that are basically sub-deliverables to Kongsberg and Nammo.
And just yesterday, together with the head of Nammo, which is this big Nordic ammunition company, we announced the massive support packet from the Norwegian state to Nammo to distribute to much broader production lines, so they can really produce more at the same time. Because, generally speaking, Western equipment is much better than Russian equipment. However, we had transformed our ammunition production to peacetime, which meant that we made very good stuff in small quantities over time. What we’re seeing now is that with Russia back in the war economy, we need to be able to still produce high-quality equipment, but more at the same time.
