Talking to Rep. Richard Hudson (R-N.C.) it really sounds like he wants to goad President Joe Biden into staying in the race. If Democrats are the party that claims to be defending democracy, he says, then “how are they going to throw away 14 million votes of the primary voters?”
Hudson is the chair of the National Republican Campaign Committee, which is to say, he’s in charge of delivering a majority in November for Speaker Mike Johnson … and possibly President Donald Trump. It’s no secret that Republicans have constructed a campaign strategy that pivots on keeping an aging, slurring Biden at the top of the Democratic ticket, and that they might find themselves in a more difficult place versus a younger, smoother replacement.
I spoke with Hudson in an interview for the Playbook Deep Dive podcast at the Republican National Convention to learn his strategy for Republicans in November with — or without — Joe Biden.
He’s bullish on their chances in November, with or without Biden on the Democratic ticket. Still, he says, while he’s convinced the GOP will sweep the White House and the House, don’t count on a red wave.
“I don’t think waves are possible anymore,” he told me, setting expectations for November.
We chatted during an especially fractious moment in our politics: one where Republicans were standing united behind Trump, following his near death experience — while senior Democrats like Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer were intensifying the pressure on President Joe Biden to step aside.
Hudson and I talked about how these events can and will rearrange his strategy for Republicans to win the House; the odds for Democratic opponents other than Joe Biden; where JD Vance can boost Republicans’ chances; Speaker Kevin McCarthy’s ouster — and Donald Trump’s voracious appetite for PowerPoint slides about random Congressional districts.
This conversation has been edited for length and clarity by Deep Dive producer Kara Tabor. You can listen to the full Playbook Deep Dive podcast interview here:
Let’s start with your initial thoughts about the assassination attempt on Donald Trump. You’re the chairman of the NRCC, you’re responsible for the Republicans winning and keeping the House. To put this in crass political terms, how does this affect your job?
I’m not sure we know yet. Saturday was such a gut punch for, I think, so many Americans. You know, we all watched live the president being shot and almost killed.
Have candidates asked you what they should say about it?
No. But I do think it has been galvanizing for Republicans. I think the way Americans have responded to how President Trump responded to the situation will benefit him politically, to get crass about it.
I think it’ll benefit him politically.
I think it will ultimately benefit him because of again, the way he reacted in the moment, the way he’s conducted himself since. We all watched Monday night when he came into that arena. I mean, the roof blew off the place. But I saw in him just a lot of humility, a lot of gratitude.
Have you talked to him since?
Just through text.
What’d he say?
Well, I don’t want to get into the details of it, but I’ll just say —
It’s fine. It’s just between us.
[Laughs] Just between us? For me, someone who knows him personally, who appreciates his character, his humor, I think that so often in the media and his political opponents kind of portray him as this two dimensional person and kind of assign a lot of characteristics and motives to him. I think now, because of what happened, the American people are kind of taking another look at him. And so I think he’s got an opportunity to kind of reintroduce himself in some ways.
A lot of rhetoric in our politics has been overheated in recent years. One prominent critic once called Donald Trump “an idiot” and compared him to Hitler.
Who would that be?
I’m talking about JD Vance, of course.
Oh, OK.
In terms of the front line House Republican candidates, was Vance the guy you were rooting for to be number two?
Well, I think it’s a fantastic choice. I think there were a number of people being mentioned that I thought were all fantastic. I went on record saying I thought Elise Stefanik would be a great pick. She’s been such a leader in the House.
New York’s pretty central to your strategy.
It is. It is. And [she’s] a working mom, a real fighter, a smart person. That was kind of my pick.
She would have helped you with these suburban districts?
Yeah, I think she would. But I think JD Vance is a fantastic pick for us, because this is a guy who embodies the American dream. We all know his story if we’ve read his book or watched the movie [Hillbilly Elegy], but this is a guy who grew up in poverty. It’s truly a rags to riches kind of story that I think will resonate with a lot of Americans and I think particularly in some places where the president needs the votes and where I’ve got some competitive seats like Pennsylvania, Michigan, North Carolina.
Any House races in Ohio?
I think it just absolutely sets Ohio on fire. I think the people in Ohio are going to be very excited to go cast a vote for their native son. So that’s certainly gonna help Bernie Moreno. I think it’s certainly going to help the three House races we’re targeting in Ohio. I think it’s also interesting to have the first millennial on a national ticket. Yeah. I guess I’m an old man. I’m the Gen Xer.
But I do think there’s a lot of young people who aren’t necessarily engaged in politics that may now engage because they see a young person. And for guys, we see a guy with a beard and go like, “That’s pretty cool. I wish I could grow a beard like that.”
There’s a sense right now at this convention that Republicans are very united and that Donald Trump is at the peak of his influence, at least within the Republican Party. What’s the strategy to expand the House map?
Well, the map is small. Because of redistricting, both parties have gotten really good at drawing very safe seats for themselves. And so if you look at 435 House seats, only 35 seats were won with 5 percent or less.
Every one of them is going to come right down to the wire. And because there’s so few, there’s gonna be a lot of money spent on each one. It’s not going to be spread as wide.
But now, things are looking better for us. The polling looks really good. And so we’re taking a look at what’s that next tranche of districts. We’ve laid down our spending. We’ve kind of put our marker out there of the races we’re going to play.
What’s the next tranche of districts that might come into play?
Well, you know, we’ll see. We’re going to do some polling and see kind of where —
What states? What districts?
I don’t know if I want to —
Ah, throw a couple out.
I don’t know if I want to lift the skirt completely, but I would just say…
What region? Let’s start with the region.
If you’re Biden plus 10, plus 11, plus 12, we think we can win those seats now. So there’ll be some pretty deep Biden districts where the key for me all along has been candidate quality. So we went out and recruited the best group of candidates we’ve ever had. There’s a lot of places where you’ve got really tough seats, but I’ve got a really compelling candidate.
I’ll throw one out for you: Josh Harder’s seat in California. We’ve got Kevin Lincoln. Kevin Lincoln is a half-Hispanic, half-African American Marine. Beautiful young family. He’s the Republican mayor of a Democrat city, Stockton, which dominates that district. He’s a fantastic candidate for us.
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You guys seem to be more pleased with the way that Donald Trump has inserted himself into some of these primaries than in previous cycles. And you know him pretty well. Can you tell us a little bit about how you help him insert himself into the endorsement process?
Well, President Trump has been a great partner for us in the House. And early on, he asked me to come in and brief him on the races and what was on the map. I’ve briefed people a lot before and know your window of opportunity. You know, maybe you get through 5 or 6 slides, but they’d send us a list of things they wanted to see and I have like a hundred slides. I thought, “Well, I’ll get through the first 7 or 8, right?” Well, we spent an hour and a half going through, race by race by race, and his knowledge and interest level in these races. I mean, he would say, “Oh yeah, I remember in 2020, this other person ran this seat” and he would remember how that race played out. His depth of knowledge shocked me.
He’s very interested in the House. He understands that to be successful as president in his next term, he’s got to have a Republican House majority and he’s been very engaged. He makes up his own mind about these endorsements. You can’t tell him to do anything.
But he seems like he listens to you and Mike Johnson.
Well, I think he trusts my judgment. We sort of lay the scenarios out for him and he decides what he’s going to do. But he has been extremely helpful.
You had another meeting this year just a few weeks ago in Mar-A-Lago with you and the speaker and the president. Tell us about that meeting.
Well, again, I don’t want to get into details of what we talked about, but it was another meeting where we were sort of updating him on our races and he had some input and advice for us. He’s always fun to be around. He’s a good guy.
Do you want to tell us anything about that meeting? It sounds like you had a story on the tip of your tongue. He’s a changed man. He’s not going to be mad at you if you tell one story.
No. I enjoy my time with him. And I wish America could see the man I get to see. He’s a warm, funny guy who loves this country, and he could be doing anything else right now. And he’s serving this country. He’s put himself in the arena. He’s taking the slings and arrows from the critics. I have a lot of respect for the man.
Some of your vulnerable candidates, there are things that they want Donald Trump to talk about — like the list of issues you just discussed — and other things that they don’t necessarily want him to talk about. When you have conversations with him, do you sort of go through that strategy of what’s helpful from him and what’s not?
Not really. Nothing comes to mind when you say that. I think he was a very successful president in his first term. His policies were very popular. Even with people that didn’t like him personally, they like his policies and that’s kind of what he’s running on again. He’s going to turn out the vote.
I know from some of your House members, they don’t think talking about whether the 2020 election was stolen or not is a good issue for them in some of these districts, right? Do you have a relationship with him where you can sort of walk him through what’s helpful and what’s not: sticking to inflation, immigration, not talking about necessarily election denialism or impeachment or defunding the special counsel?
I don’t think he needs to hear that from me. I think he’s been very disciplined. In the rallies I’ve seen him, he’s talking about the issues people care about. And, he’s running a very disciplined campaign this time around. I think he said in a recent interview that he’s learned a lot, having already had four years in the White House. He knows the players better. He knows the processes better. I think he will be a much more effective president.
In the last quarter, the Democrats did very well in terms of fundraising vis-a-vis some of your vulnerable Republicans. I think Sen. Thune conceded that on the Senate side, they were moderately concerned about fundraising. How about on the House side?
Well, the Democrats traditionally always raise more money than our team does. They’ve got structural advantages. Coming into this job, that’s one of my concerns. And we worked really hard at fundraising. And, we’ve had a couple of hiccups — Speaker McCarthy being vacated. He was the most effective fundraiser we’ve ever had.
That really made a difference?
It made a big difference. Our online and our mail fell off a cliff during the several weeks trying to figure out who the next speaker was going to be. But Speaker Johnson, the first day as speaker, was our best online fundraising day ever. He immediately hit the road. He’s raised over $50 million, I think, for the committee and our super PAC has done really well since he got on board.
Let’s talk about Speaker Johnson. Do you think he’ll be the speaker after the election?
I do. I think we’ll pick up a number of seats.
What if you don’t keep the House?
We’re going to keep the House. It’s just a question of, how many seats can we pick up? And I think we’ll pick up enough that he’ll be rewarded with another term of speaker.
Are you supporting him as speaker no matter what?
Yes, absolutely.
What do you think your margin will be after the election?
I’m not going to say a number, but I just remind you, there’s a very narrow number of swing seats. We’re not going to have these huge, sweeping majorities we’ve seen in recent history. I think we’ll have a good number of pickups.
Do you think about what happens two years out from this election and if Donald Trump is president and the sort of normal backlash against an incumbent president and the party that holds the House often loses?
I haven’t even thought about Nov. 6. I am so focused on the job in front of us. I would say if we go in and do what we said we’re going to do, and we really do bring this economy back, drive down inflation, make neighborhoods safer, secure the border, shut off the fentanyl flow into the country, I think the American people are going to reward Republicans in two years.
Talking about 2024 again. In 2022, there was a lot of talk about a red wave. Is there going to be a red wave in 2024?
I don’t think waves are possible anymore. I think the number of seats up for grabs, there’s just not enough. And so, I think you’re going to see Republicans win the White House, the Senate, the House all the way down the ballot because I think Joe Biden’s policies have failed America and the voters understand it. And I think they’re going to give us a large victory.
Is impeaching Joe Biden still a top priority for House Republicans?
Well, my priority is beating a bunch of Democrat House members. I’m not on either committee that’s the panel on that process. So I’ll let them handle it and we’ll get the report and I’ll read it and decide what to do then.
But your candidates in California and New York, they don’t see impeachment as a priority, do they?
You have to ask them.
If you’re trying to help them, do you want an impeachment vote on Joe Biden between now and Election Day?
Everything is going our way right now. The American people understand that Joe Biden’s policies have failed them. We’re all for an alternative that they seem to like. I don’t necessarily want to change those factors right now. If the Judiciary Committee comes back with a report that shows he’s committed crimes that rise to that level, then we have a duty to do it. But we’ll see.
There’s some talk by some of your colleagues about Biden not being able to carry out his duties because he’s not mentally there. This is some of your Republican colleagues talking about asking the administration — the cabinet — to implement the 25th Amendment.
I think I read about that in POLITICO.
What do you think of that? Are you there?
I mean, that’s not our role.
Well it could be your role to advocate for it.
Well, look, the biggest cover up in American history is every member of Congress has known for years that Joe Biden doesn’t have the mental acuity to do the job. We’ve known that for years. And the Democrats in Congress have pretended like it’s not true. And when any of us bring it up, they gaslight us and say, “Oh, you’re lying.” What are they calling them now? “Cheap fakes?” It’s the biggest cover up in American political history and the debate exposed it. And now all of a sudden, “Oh my gosh, he has a mental acuity problem. Who knew?” Well, you were with him last week. You know this.
We all know that he has this issue. But as far as I’m concerned, we need to stay focused on his policies. And this election needs to be about the policies that have failed American people. The American people can decide about the mental acuity thing. You see some Democrats now saying, “Oh, he should step down, but then he should stay as president.” So he doesn’t have the mental acuity to be a candidate, but he should keep his finger on the nuclear code button. He’s okay to go negotiate with Putin. It’s so cynical.
If he should step down as a candidate, he’s also not capable of being president. It’s very cynical. Or he’s completely fine. If he’s completely fine, then you have said that your party is the defenders of democracy, so you’re going to throw out 14 million Americans’ votes in the Democrat primary and replace him because of your political interest? Who’s subverting democracy now?
Playbook reported that there’s some new polling that shows five different Democrats doing better than Biden against Trump in seven swing states. This was a survey of 15,000 voters in seven swing states. Mark Kelly, Wes Moore, Josh Shapiro and Gretchen Whitmer all did better than Biden and Kamala Harris. Who would you rather run against if the Democratic Party forces Biden to step down as the nominee?
I don’t think it makes a difference because this election is about inflation, the border, crime, fentanyl. It’s all the policies of Joe Biden. His vice president was right there with him every step of the way. If you insert Democrat B or Democrat C, they have the same policies.
Do they? Let’s play this hypothetical: What if tomorrow, Mark Kelly is suddenly the Democratic nominee? He’s not part of the Biden administration.
He voted for the IRA, which threw gasoline on the flames of inflation. He’s voted against border security measures. It’s the same policies.
Josh Shapiro? Would it scramble everything if suddenly the Democrats replace Biden?
Well, it may give him a better shot. But again, I think the American people reject their policies.
Would you think any of those candidates would be tougher to beat than Biden?
I don’t think it makes a difference for us. I think the American people have made up their mind and they’re ready to try something different.
But a better shot?
We’ll see. I haven’t looked at the poll numbers. I mean, I’m hearing what you say. I don’t think it matters. But again, this is the party that’s defending democracy. How are they going to throw away 14 million votes of the primary voters?
That’s Biden’s argument.
That sounds pretty cynical to me. I don’t know.
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